Curse

Warskull · Nov 13, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

The Elites
The dervish has two rather strong scythe elites. Both offer the ability to deep wound. Wounding strike is an on demand deepwound with a very easily met condition. It additionally has a very short cooldown and some flexibility for solo fighting (the ability to manipulate enchantments for both bleeding and deep wound is can be useful.) Reaper's Sweep on the otherhand is the most damaging scythe attack in the game. It hits for a whopping +42 at 16 scythe. It unfortunately has a much longer cooldown than wounding strike. These are both very viable elites. I suggest utilizing wounding strike if you have no other reliable deep wound sources, however reaper's sweep can be extremely useful for its consitantly high damage.

The big hitters
These skills tend to hit for very large amounts of damage without interfering with your enchantments.

Victorious Sweep:
This is one of the best non-elite scythe attacks available. It hits hard, for +33 damage at 16. Only reaper's sweep does more. In addition if you hit a target with less health than yourself you get a nice big heal. While in some formats this is just a nice bonus, it can be a great strength in arenas. Additionally this skill is cheap and spammable. This is an all around great skill and should be at the top of your list when selecting attack skills.

Wearying Strike:
This is a very powerful skill with a drawback. It stikes for +33 damage and lands a deep wound on a very spammable skill. This is an absolute brutal blow. However, the weakness does have a rather significant impact on your further attacks. Ideally if you run this skill you want a way to work around the weakness. Examples of this are using it with signet of malice and avatar of melandru. You really don't want to use an energy based skill to remove the weakness though or you effectively increase the cost of the skill by at least 5. When the weakness is mitigated this skill is devastating, however it should not be thrown into just any build. The use of this skill needs to be thought out.

Chilling Victory:
This skill is expensive and has a long cooldown, in addition it only stike for +21 damage. At a glance it may not seem that great. However, the bonus strike the main target. Thus if you stike a foe with less health you end up stiking for an additional 84 damage. This is a very powerful skill that does a lot of damage. It is rather energy hungry though. A build needs to be able to support the cost when using this skill. The higher cooldown also means you really have to get the most out of it when you use it. This is again a strong skill, but not one that should be used without though.

Reap Impurities
This skill strikes for +31 damage, costs 10 energy, and heals you when you strike a foes with conditions on them. It is really weaker than victorious sweep in every way, shape, and form. You can heal yourself at lower HP levels with it, but that is not enough to make all the other drawbacks worth it. Don't bother with this skill.

Enchantment Eaters
These are the skills that cause you to lose an enchantment when used. They may have some nice effects and sometimes the enchantment loss is sometimes desirable.

Irresistable Sweep
A strong, unconditional damage bonus, and on enchant loss it gains "cannot be blocked or evaded." This is a very nice skill overall, if for some reason you cannot meet the enchantment condition it is still a pretty good hit. However, if you meet the condition it will go through many stances. This is a good reliable damage spell if you want to tear off enchantments for effects. However, if you don't have a specific reason to rip off enchantments I would just run Victorious Sweep instead.

Pious Assualt
This is a strong attack landing for +31 damage, but has a poor cooldown. If you tear off an enchant it instantly recharges. The problem is that there are so many 5e skills that hit for roughly this amount with 4r that you do not need this skill recharging so fast. In addition you really need a lot of enchantments to work this skill. I would look to other skills.

Twin Moon Sweep
While striking twice may seem like no big deal, scythe attacks can do very high damage and a double scythe attack has a lot of damage potential. The skill is stronger under strength of honor (you can plan not to rip that one), but really doesn't synergize well with orders (it always tends to be on top.) If you fail to rip an enchantment it is no better than a normal scythe swing. This one has some potential, but is in most situations outshined by Irresistable sweep.

The Quick Attacks
These skills all have a 3/4s cast time. This makes them very useful to follow another highly damaging attack.

Mystic Sweep
This is the more useful of the two in PvP. You usually need 3 enchantments to max out the damage potential. With a skill like faithful intervention you can usually have 1 already there and the other two can come from the rest of the build or be placed at will. +20 and +30 is not unreasonable here. This is a very nice attack to follow a big hit. A great skill overall.

Eremites Attack
This is definately the weaker of the two in PvP. While you are guaranteed a +10 damage (you are next to someone if you hit.) Hits of +20 and +30 are much less common in most situations. I would take this if you want a second 3/4 attack (which can be very desirable), but this remains a second choice to Mystic Sweep. Good players tend not to stand close to each other.

Utility
These skills tend to have a desirable effect other than damage.

Crippling Sweep
This is actually a very good skill. Getting 1-2 enchantments on a dervish isn't hard and this is a very spammable cripple. It can be extremely annoying for your enemies and is a good way to lock down a target. The lack of damage sucks, but the cripple spam more than makes up for it. A nice skill, just needs the right build to excel. Worthy of a slot when you want the cripple.

Rending Sweep
Little bit of damage, little bit of utility. The damage is so-so and the recharge isn't great. However, the combination of damage and enchantment striping possibilities makes this an alright choice in the right situation. Definately not a prime damage skill, but in a hex build the spammable strip can be nice.

Banishing Strike
The damage here again isn't that impressive, but when you finally do run into spirits or minions this skill destroys them like nothing else (you will often drop 200 damage on a number of spirits with this skill.) Again like rending sweep, I would mostly take this as a 2nd or 3rd attack skill in certain metagames or situations. Not a backbone attack, but usable in the right situation.

Lyssa's Assualt
This skill becomes free if you are enchanted, but only does a meager +21 damage. I see it mainly as energy management for an R/D, but the cooldown is somewhat undesirable. This is a bit of a weak skill overall.

Overall
Chilling victory, Victorious Sweep, Wounding Strike, and Reaper's Sweep are the first skills you should look at when selecting attack skills. Mystic Sweep and Eremites attack can be given some attention if you want the fast attacks. The other skills should then be taken based on build and need. Most of the attacks are viable in some situations, but the proper situation may be rare.

Also, some scythe mastery attacks are melee attacks. However this does not mean you should use them on other melee weapons. Scythe Mastery attacks give less damage per point than attacks in other lines, the only one really viable on another melee weapon would be Twin Moon Sweep (doesn't require a spec into scythe mastery) and still that is very limited application.

LiamR · Nov 13, 2006, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Very nice guide, now i know which skills to choose!

10/10 ^^

stueyman2099 · Nov 13, 2006, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Thanks for the write up.

I'd also add, that although it isn't actualy a Dervish skill, Wild Blow on a Dervish is very powerful, especialy with the presence of Shadow of Haste flag runners, and Dark Escape monks. And, since chances are you don't have any adrenaline skills on your bar there is no drawback to the skill. That and a critical hit out of a scythe is nothing to laugh about.

Patccmoi · Nov 13, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Hrm, not sure where you get your data for Rending Sweep but it's a 5E/4s recharge attack. I use it with Siphon Speed on D/A in a hex-heavy build and it's about the best non-elite enchant removal you can have. The damage is ok, not great (it's still just around 10 less than the high damage ones) but the utility is pretty awesome for the 4s recharge. Tearing down Prot Spirits and Spirit Bonds on a 4s recharge on your melee is incredible.

I think you're pretty right on the others. For Crippling Sweep though i really prefer Harrier's Grasp over it. It'll cripple when you need it usually and it's 10E every 25s with some return from Mysticism (so really you spend about as much as 1 Crippling Sweep every 25s to cripple all the time). Even with very low investment in Wind Prayers (like 4-5) it'll cripple for around 5-6s and since it cripples every hit on a moving target you don't need a long duration at all (usually cripples that matter are removed before much longer if they aren't already).

Important to keep in mind that Mystic Sweep-Eremite will cancel the recoil on other attack skills so you can truly replace an IAS by using both of these, though it's costy. But something like Wounding-Mystic-Wild Blow-Eremite is a pretty huge damage chain that actually comes out quite quickly even without an IAS. You need someone else helping your energy with enchants though.

Iscana · Nov 13, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Personally I think that Dervishes can be really strong with applying conditions to all team members in opposite team. I have played a few RA fights and won with a 2 dervish, 1 elem and 1 necro team for like 8 rounds and all flawless in just less then 2 minutes were the opposite team suffered from a huge condition degen which was I think, Deep wound, bleeding, fire and poison.

What we did was bacly rush on a player, hit him with poison, deepwound and bleeding, went to another did the same. Than run back and finish them off with melee and holy damage.
Went pretty well, althought it's no match against spikers which are really anoying.

Btw When I tried out this build with aplying conditions and stuff, I did 25 tries on Random Arena were 15 of them were just horrible because of leavers. I had exactly 12 times that I was in a team of just me and someone else, 3 times I was totally alone, they just left before the match even started. Now or it might be a bug which kicks players from teams or Anet should really, yes really make a punishement system for leavers. Seriously the reason I do not do that much PvP is because of those leavers. Make them pay gold or something, or remove factions temp ban or kick from server, aargh I just can't stand those damn leavers.

Sorry 2nd part was a bit oftopic, but well, maybe I'm just the only person who meets this problem daily.

Warskull · Nov 13, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Hrm, not sure where you get your data for Rending Sweep but it's a 5E/4s recharge attack. I use it with Siphon Speed on D/A in a hex-heavy build and it's about the best non-elite enchant removal you can have. The damage is ok, not great (it's still just around 10 less than the high damage ones) but the utility is pretty awesome for the 4s recharge. Tearing down Prot Spirits and Spirit Bonds on a 4s recharge on your melee is incredible.

I think you're pretty right on the others. For Crippling Sweep though i really prefer Harrier's Grasp over it. It'll cripple when you need it usually and it's 10E every 25s with some return from Mysticism (so really you spend about as much as 1 Crippling Sweep every 25s to cripple all the time). Even with very low investment in Wind Prayers (like 4-5) it'll cripple for around 5-6s and since it cripples every hit on a moving target you don't need a long duration at all (usually cripples that matter are removed before much longer if they aren't already).

Important to keep in mind that Mystic Sweep-Eremite will cancel the recoil on other attack skills so you can truly replace an IAS by using both of these, though it's costy. But something like Wounding-Mystic-Wild Blow-Eremite is a pretty huge damage chain that actually comes out quite quickly even without an IAS. You need someone else helping your energy with enchants though.

Rending Sweep still requires a hex and it still has to hit to strip the enchantment. Thus if you miss, you have to wait a full 4s to try again. If you want enchant stripping taking rending touch or another dervish enchant strip is far more reliable. Rending sweep is more of an incidental extra enchantment removal rather than a reliable enchantment removal. There are a lot of "ifs" involved with rending sweep that limits the skill. If it works perfectly it is great, but the question is "do you want to spend the slot?" on the skill. You have to know you will be sticking hexes for this to really work. It can be great in some builds, but it is nothing more than +21 damage in other builds.

Patccmoi · Nov 13, 2006, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

Rending Sweep still requires a hex and it still has to hit to strip the enchantment. Thus if you miss, you have to wait a full 4s to try again. If you want enchant stripping taking rending touch or another dervish enchant strip is far more reliable. Rending sweep is more of an incidental extra enchantment removal rather than a reliable enchantment removal. There are a lot of "ifs" involved with rending sweep that limits the skill. If it works perfectly it is great, but the question is "do you want to spend the slot?" on the skill. You have to know you will be sticking hexes for this to really work. It can be great in some builds, but it is nothing more than +21 damage in other builds.

Well +21 damage is compared mostly to ~+30 damage. So no, not primarily a damage dealing skill but it's really not that much under. Still hurts as much as an Irresistible Blow for example.

I agree that it is build dependant and that you need reliable hex stacking. We use it in a hex-heavy build and the Dervish has a spammable hex himself, so it's quite easy to have one on target usually. It's not something you throw in a build without thought, but i think it's still a truly incredible Scythe Attack and definitely a top tier one if the conditions are met. What i was mostly disagreeing with in what you said is that the recharge isn't great when it's potentially the lowest recharge enchant removal in the game.

Most other enchant strippers Dervish has require you to lose your own enchants and depending on your build that's also not something you necessarily want. If you go Earth, usually you don't care about losing enchants but with Winds using stuff like Featherfoot Grace-Harrier's Grasp-Heart of Fury you want to keep these 3 going as much as possible. And having it on an attack skill also mean it can be part of your spike and won't slow you (because stopping to do Rending Touch means you lose 1.5s where you're not hitting and the target can potentially kite you so you might as well forget about killing it afterwards)

TLLOTS · Nov 13, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

A nice write up and I agree with much of what has been said. I wanted to note however that Lyssa's Assault has an incorrect description (or is bugged) and the energy return is actually linked to Scythe Mastery, so at 16 Scythe Mastery it will return 13 energy instead of 10. It's still a pretty lousy skill, but if you have a free spot and could use some extra energy then it has at least some potential.

Symbol · Nov 13, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

The chain I like is Wild Blow - Mystic - Eremite's - Victorious. Finishes in 5 seconds, you get a guaranteed crit, and a minimum of +53 bonus damage, and you remove a stance to boot

skillsbas8 · Nov 13, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Nice, intro guide. Haven't really looked at Dervishes yet (:

Dzan · Nov 14, 2006, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Chilling Victory is tempting, most because if it criticals versus a 60al target you are going to be hitting for 176 damage, which compares well with Final Thrust. However, it scales VERY poorly with armor, since its technically two separate attacks and both are modified by armor.

I don't know if it justifies a place on a bar when Victorious Sweep and Mystic Sweep are so strong, and for 5 less energy and faster recharge.

dgb · Nov 14, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warskull

Twin Moon Sweep
While striking twice may seem like no big deal, scythe attacks can do very high damage and a double scythe attack has a lot of damage potential. The skill is stronger under strength of honor (you can plan not to rip that one), but really doesn't synergize well with orders (it always tends to be on top.) If you fail to rip an enchantment it is no better than a normal scythe swing. This one has some potential, but is in most situations outshined by Irresistable sweep.

This thing is borderline broken when you combo it with the avatar of grenth, if you eat an enchant you remove two of theirs - I've seen a few teams running around HA with two avatars with this, they'll just beat down one guy as the prot monk cries because he can't get a prot to stick to them.

Progor · Nov 14, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

A nice write up and I agree with much of what has been said. I wanted to note however that Lyssa's Assault has an incorrect description (or is bugged) and the energy return is actually linked to Scythe Mastery, so at 16 Scythe Mastery it will return 13 energy instead of 10. It's still a pretty lousy skill, but if you have a free spot and could use some extra energy then it has at least some potential.

Hmmm, if that's true, combining Lyssa's Assault with Onslaught, the Wind Prayers Elite that recharges scythe attacks faster and cuts it's energy cost by 25%, might make for a nice build. It would cost 8 energy and return 13, for a net gain of 5 energy every 6 seconds. That, along with natural regen should help you spam Victorious Sweep and Mystic Sweep at their adjusted 3 second recharge time fairly well.

Seef II · Nov 14, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Twin Moon Sweep on a squishy autocrit is really, really nice. But how often does it happen? The little heal it gives is gravy (~55 health total with reasonable Mysticism) but at a cost of an enchant. Totally agreed that the enchant strippers are definitely more suited towards the Earth Prayers.

Has anyone considered using Attacker's Insight to power something like Chilling Victory? Instead of being down 10 energy, you are down 1-2, depending on your Mysticism rank. Unfortunately, space on a dervish's skill bar is really rather tight, and the time invested (1 s total) may not be worth it when you need the Chilling Victory to count.

Remarks
Victorious Sweep: each foe you hit that has less health than you grants a packet of healing. That makes this skill pretty retarded in PvE and if you're supported well enough, great against balls (NPCs, ward campers, HA) in PvP.
Chilling Victory: The extra cold damage only triggers once, so the description ought to read "If you hit a foe..." rather then "Whenever you hit a foe..."
Lyssa's Assault: returns a variable amount of energy.

Made In Ascalon · Nov 23, 2006, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

Thanks for the write up.

I'd also add, that although it isn't actualy a Dervish skill, Wild Blow on a Dervish is very powerful, especialy with the presence of Shadow of Haste flag runners, and Dark Escape monks. And, since chances are you don't have any adrenaline skills on your bar there is no drawback to the skill. That and a critical hit out of a scythe is nothing to laugh about.

QFT
An especially devastating tactic is to use Avatar of Grenth with it. Suddenly you have a character that will always remove an enchantment every five seconds, unless blinded, and remove stances easily.

Warskull · Nov 23, 2006, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Progor

Hmmm, if that's true, combining Lyssa's Assault with Onslaught, the Wind Prayers Elite that recharges scythe attacks faster and cuts it's energy cost by 25%, might make for a nice build. It would cost 8 energy and return 13, for a net gain of 5 energy every 6 seconds. That, along with natural regen should help you spam Victorious Sweep and Mystic Sweep at their adjusted 3 second recharge time fairly well.

This has some potential and is worth experimenting with. Unfortunately the cost of the 5e skills only drops to 4e. The large net with Lyssa's Assault should be quite helpful, though.

Isil`Zha · Nov 26, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I've found some good uses for twin moon sweep - in PvE and PvP

For instance, say 2 foes attack you, and either they both have blocking/evading either by stances of their own or by proxy (Displacement), or you're blinded.

Sand Shards -> Heart of Holy Flame -> Twin Moon Sweep.

At decent mysticism you'll hit em for ~50 with heart, then twin moon sweep will trigger Sand Shards 4 times. That means with Sand Shards doing 20 damage; they, and any other foe in the area, take an instant 80 damage, and those two near you are also set on fire. If that's 3 seconds of burning, that totals up to 172 damage in just ~1 second to both of them. The bigger the group, the more it hurts them. Overall, that's 344 dmg a monk has to deal with across two players - and that doesn't count the 80 dmg done to any foe that happens to just be 'nearby.'

In Aspenwood for instance, against the Amber mine Kurzick Ritualists, that combination is absolutely devastating. The more spirits they have up when I run up and hit them with it, the more powerful it gets. I've had one swing take out 6 spirits and nearly kill both the ritualists, with only 1 or 2 more hits needed to finish them both off. My screen is literally filled with damage values from multiple Sand Shard triggers. 1 Ritualist + 3 sprits = 8 triggers, or an instant 504 damage to all nearby foes!

How's that for a spike?